Friday, March 11, 2005

Protect The Minority of The Opulent Against The Majority

Who said this?

‘In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The Senate, therefore, ought to be this body.’


Well?

It was US Founding Father James Madison. At Lenin's Tomb, commenter Jonathan Elliot, ed., ‘The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, 1787’ Philadelphia: Lippincott, 2nd edition, (1937[1836]), p. 450

This quote is towards the beginning of a longer multi-comment essay on business's use of propaganda to ensure its interests, with a historical scope, and many facts new to me - like the NAM campaign in the USA of the thirties-forties.

176 Comments:

At 1:57 AM, Blogger josh narins said...

The property might be insecure? Do you believe the land-distribution in England was fair? Is fair?

Do you realize what he was saying about the House of Representatives? That it ought to be a body designed to attack the rich, to constantly be on guard for the schemes of the rich.

I am not pleased with Zinn and others attempts to selectively quote from the Founders to paint them as reactionary. Chomsky does it, too.

I'm not trying to assert that they are somehow advocating equal wealth for all, but skipping the anti-Rich nature of the House, and only pointing to the Senate, that's absurd?

Who actually wrote the US Constitution?

A friend of Madison named Gouvernor Morris.

 
At 2:05 AM, Blogger josh narins said...

I don't see the story at the link. I wanted to add the counter-vailing quotes.

Another thing to realize is that the society was staid and conservative. Part of what Jefferson and Madison would have wanted to advocate, perhaps, simply couldn't get approval of society.

Jefferson was so paranoid that (I think) a good portion of his notes on Montesquieu are "in code." (In French, that I understand. But in Italian?)

What did Jefferson name his party. The Democratic-Republicans. I suspect to him that meant a society where equality was essential. At least, the term D-R is used in Montesquieu to refer to a society where love of the Republic equalled the love of equality, and where a general frugality was enjoyed. Where everyone might be expected to share the same hopes and aspirations.

Where everyone votes on everything.

 
At 5:42 PM, Blogger DoDo said...

Josh, I have barely read Zinn or even Chomsky, tough David Traynier might have gotten the quotes from there :-)

'Reactionary' is relative, relative to the momentary mainstream, hence I'd call most US Founding Fathers progressive. Madison's arguments for a House of Representatives were certainly progressive, and even his views about the distiction of landowners (his own elite) were quite normal among enlightement thinkers of his time. (David Traynier quoted more of his, reproduced at the end of this comment.)

I posted this passage without much comment for its expliciteness, but here are my thoughts insired by it. First, I think this view of the distinction of landowners (the seen-as-evident reason to defend them from the plebs) is a form of aristocratic-republicanism is in its essence largely irrelevant today: with extensive urbanisation, of both the money and intellectual elites too, the argument that those who own land are most bound to and therefore feel most responsible towards the State has no pull.

What has relevance is that the views of the Founding Fathers led to the US Constitution, which is almost impossible to change (only Amendments) - that is, it conserves some elitist structures now devoid of their original meaning, but taken use of by new elites with different philosophies.

Now the second Madison quote by David Traynier:

‘An obvious and permanent division of every people is into owners of the Soil, and the other inhabitants. In a certain sense, the Country may be said to belong to the former... Whatever may be the rights of others derived from their birth in the Country, from their interest in the high ways & other parcels left open for common use as well, as in the national Edifices and monuments; from their share in the public defence, and from their concurrent support of the Govt., it would seem unreasonable to extend the right so far as to give them when become the majority, a power of Legislation over the landed property without the consent of the proprietors.’ (James Madison: Note to his Speech on the Right of Suffrage," in Max Farrand, ed., The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1966, Vol. III, p. 452 )

 
At 5:46 PM, Blogger DoDo said...

"I don't see the story at the link."

Do you mean my link and the quote? It is in the Comments to the linked Lenin's Tomb post, it starts down a few dozen comments.

 
At 6:11 PM, Blogger DoDo said...

...I just finished reading what Morris had to say about the Senate (the whole of it, not just what you quoted in your linked post). Very interesting, this permanent setting-apart of the rich and establishing them as a check-and-balance, but certainly not the same sentiments as Madison's above.

I note he argued for Senators for life, not elected, and rich enough to not be paid. Since you are also a variant of pro-aristocratic-republican, I am curious about whether 1) you agree with any of these points of his, and 2) whether you think their violation played a central part in today's problems or is it something else.

 
At 5:31 AM, Blogger josh narins said...

I don't see how land ownership is an essential part of A-R. I doubt any non-landowners get elected, either here or in other countries, and certainly not but in exceptional circumstances.

My first thoughts are that if the voting populations are the same, then it isn't smart to expect the two bodies to be antagonistic. The US Senate was originally elected by the States, but that doesn't match the model, either.

Although it'd be a wonderful thing if the lower House wasn't also a tool of privilege, and that would (I imagine) solve many problems, I am having quite a hard time imagining how to formalize the distinction.

The real problems have far more to do with "the establishment press" (ideas which might cause waves are not discussed, the government is first to be believed), and a lazy, distinterested public.

Most Americans simply aren't interested. The issues are presented in a far more comlicated way than they need be, and the real bullshit (the prescription drugs bill, the new social security bill) are buried in 100s of pages of legislation which is (a lot of the time) presented like

"In Paragraph B, Subsection C of Title V replace the 'or' with 'and'"

And _that_ law, if changed, might be referred to by many other parts of the law (cascade effect).

It's far easier to pass crap that way, and crap is what is passed.

 
At 5:38 AM, Blogger josh narins said...

Right now I'm of a mind to shorten all terms. However, there's nothing inherently wrong with longer terms. I know Americans in the early Republic firmly believed in shorter terms than we ended up with. Only a couple or few states had two year terms for their Governors, most had one year terms, and a couple had six month terms. I wonder if more frequent elections might not force people to pay more attention (sounds like wishful thinking).

I can see how if they were rich enough not to be paid, one might imagine they'd represent the rich. But, again, it only works if the other body is keeping an eye on the rich.

 
At 3:42 PM, Blogger josh narins said...

I doubt you read the entire record of Farrand concerning the 2nd Constitutional Convention, and you seem to upbraid me for only quoting a paragraph. What else should I have included? Certainly Morris doesn't turn around and claim that the House of Reps shouldn't be as he describes, nor is it common knowledge that he wrote the Constitution.

Having one House of Congress being designed to watch over the rich is one more than Chomsky or Zinn give the founders credit for having envisioned.

Also, I was displeased with the way you converted a talk about Schwartz's stupidity (for he is stupid) and what _later_ happened to Protestantism. You mischaracterized the map I linked to, also, as using only state borders.

Here it is again.

 
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At 10:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Even though this site hasn't been looked at in a while, it's important to look at what Madison actually said and leave a statement for others to look at.

I'm not sure if Mr. Narins has it totally correct when discussing Madison, Zinn, Chomsky, etc. Take a hard look at what Madison said (http://www.epiic.org/newsletter/chomsky.html). He clearly was a man of his times, and that should be remembered. Yet, what Chomsky and others say, is that it's clear Madison wasn't for real democracy, and that doesn't seem hard to prove (again: read what Madison said looking at the above mentioned website). Madison wanted a special kind of government. One that didn't really "attack the rich." One that kept slaves, women, non-landowners, and Native Americans (basically, most of the population) at bay.

Lastly, ask yourself: 'Who was the Constitution written for?' Can anyone believe that it was a document for everyone? Yes, put the document in its historical framework, but let's not say that the country's leaders weren't all men, white, and mostly wealthy landowners who would disrupt their own power interests.

 
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